Dutch political scientist Cas Mudde (56 years old) has spent decades analyzing the rise of the extreme right. And he is not optimistic. Movements that threaten liberal democracies are on the rise and his populist discourse permeates the general debate without us realizing it. “The radical right has not moderated; is he mainstream the one who has been radicalized ”, he warns. Resident in the United States – he is a professor at the University of Georgia – since 2008, Mudde takes advantage of his trips to Europe to give talks, meet with his colleagues in various countries and enjoy soccer. He has seen a game in Berlin, where he attends us before flying to Barcelona to participate in Orwell Day, which is held this Tuesday at the Center for Contemporary Culture (CCCB). author of The far right today and of the much quoted Populism: A Brief Introduction, Mudde uses Spanish politics to explain concepts. Vox is dangerous, he says, because it moves well within the system and will probably have the PP as an ally.
Ask. You explain that in three decades Western societies have gone from excluding radical discourse to normalizing it. How did it happen?
Answer. At the end of the nineties there was a great taboo on xenophobia and nationalism. But 9/11 came and the response was Islamophobia and prejudice. Once in that dynamic, only one party had a negative discourse on immigration and that was the extreme right. Others began to talk about immigration as a problem, as a threat to identity and national security. And once you adopt the framework, you adopt the positions. Then the difference between you and the extreme right is reduced and there are fewer reasons to exclude it.
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Q.How do you define that ideology?
R.The core is not socioeconomic, but sociocultural and is based on nativism, which is a xenophobic form of nationalism. They want their state to be inhabited mainly by their own nation, which they strictly define, and they consider the foreign as a threat. Combined with authoritarianism, his own vision of law and order and, in many cases, populism. And what we call welfare state chauvinism. They support him, but for his people.
Q.He says that in most countries tolerance and inclusion are advancing, especially among young people. How is the reactionary wave explained?
R.Who votes? The older ones, especially. Older people are not necessarily more xenophobic, but for them immigration has become a problem and an identity issue.
Q.And what is the role of the conservative parties in this context?
R.We are seeing a radicalization of the mainstream and, in particular, of the right mainstream. The PP, for example, is much more right-wing today, especially on socio-cultural issues, than it was 30 years ago. In France, the republicans are like National Rally. There are some exceptions, such as the CDU in Germany. The center is moving to the right for electoral gain. In time they will be indistinguishable from the extreme right. And as Jean-Marie Le Pen already said, people will choose the original over the copy.
Q.Is Vox dangerous?
R.A lot. Vox is a radical right-wing party, just like the National Front or the AfD. The fact that they leave mainstream [del PP], that they are professional politicians, that they are softer than others does not mean anything. Ideologically it is nativism, authoritarianism and populism. There is danger because fundamentally they are anti-liberal democracy, they have problems with the rights of minorities, the separation of powers and the rule of law, like all the radical parties of the right. And they are particularly dangerous because they are competent. Vox will want to work within the system and will probably have an ally in the PP.
Q.In what sense?
R.Vox is like Meloni in Italy and, in part, like Orbán in Hungary: they want to change the system from within. And they know how.
“Progressives love the fear of the far right. They swallow any story, even made up. It is always the most read. I call it ‘far-right porn’”
Q.Does it make sense to turn an election into a plebiscite of “either me or the extreme right” (as the Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez, has done)?
R.The problem with focusing the elections on the extreme right is that the party that is against wins, but so does the extreme right. Because it has been at the center of the debate. The PP, of course, will try to counter that by saying: if you want to avoid Vox, give us the majority.
Q.And will he enter that game?
R.Honestly, I think the PP is a bigger short-term threat to liberal democracy than Vox. Vox is not going to reach 30% overnight. If he gets influence it will be indirectly because the PP moves to the right or directly through a coalition. So Pedro Sánchez needs to raise that plebiscite. The problem is that the debate will be limited to that. And the Spanish will not talk about housing, education or health.
Q.What responsibility do the media have?
R.The media are often seen as part of the democratic arena, and they are not. They are a business and need to sell. Many journalists are concerned about the extreme right, but work for companies that feed on that content. And the extreme right sells, scandals sell.
Q.It happened with Trump, right?
R.Nothing shows it better. CNN viewership, subscriptions to The New York Times oh The Washington Post they fired. Progressives love to be afraid of the far right. They buy any story, even fabricated ones about a populist international. It is the most read. I call it “far right porn”.
Q.Europe fears another Trump.
R.Normal, he is unpredictable and would be the most powerful person in the world as president and leader of the largest army. And Ron DeSantis is ideologically identical. It is as nativist and authoritarian as he is, and both are fundamentally undemocratic.
Q.We have undemocratic leaders in Europe. How does the European Union deal with them?
R.He has long mastered the lesson of Hungary. If you are authoritarian at home but loyal in Brussels, the EU lets you do it. Now comes a new lesson from Poland. If you are authoritarian at home but play fair in terms of NATO or foreign policy interests, that’s fine. Right now Orbán is marginalized, but not because of liberal democracy, but because of his pro-Putin position. The lesson he commands is that by being staunchly anti-Putin, they will leave me alone.
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