Juan Barreto Cipriani (Caracas, 1959) was one of President Hugo Chávez’s key allies. A journalist and sociologist, he served as a deputy in the National Assembly of Venezuela, then as metropolitan mayor of Caracas (2004-2008), founder of the left-wing party REDES and supported the government of Nicolás Maduro until almost a decade ago. “It was like divorces. It’s not just one thing that makes a relationship end and go from illusion to disillusionment,” he said in a telephone interview with EL PAÍS about his break with the government.
Since Redes revalidated its registration as a party in 2017 – which it attributes to retaliation for its dissidence – and became a political movement, Barreto decided to support the presidential candidacy of Enrique Márquez, former rector of the National Electoral Council (CNE) and representative of the Centrados en la Gente party, who competed in the July 28 elections.
Now, the former mayor is asking for a review of the results due to suspicions of fraud by the electoral body, which, without publishing evidence of the scrutiny for an alleged hacking of its automated voting system, has proclaimed Maduro as president. In contrast, the opposition, led by María Corina Machado, released more than 80% of the minutes, compiled by electoral witnesses, pointing to a victory for Edmundo González Urrutia with 67% compared to 30% for the current president.
Barreto says that Centrados also has a significant sample of the receipts, almost 40% of the total, which would reflect the defeat. As a politician who knew the current regime intimately and who still considers himself a Chavista, he adds that at this moment Maduro is “withdrawn into himself, closed, and that is why the situation is very delicate.”
Ask. What made you distance yourself from Nicolás Maduro’s government?
Answer. Many things, but the straw that broke the camel’s back came in 2016. That year, we held a march of oil workers and handed President Nicolás Maduro documented complaints about various acts of corruption in the industry. This was ignored, although its veracity was later proven. At that time, some colleagues went to the Attorney General’s Office to present evidence, but they began to be persecuted. Many were fired from the industry and others ended up in prison. I could not endorse this situation and I came forward, denouncing the acts of corruption, the abuses and the violation of human rights against workers.
Then the Orinoco Mining Arc happened, the Government created an exclusive zone where the Constitution is not complied with and irregularities are committed from an ecological point of view. I decided to disassociate myself definitively and we continued on our way. That had a cost, because the Government immediately prosecuted the Redes party, which is the organization to which I belonged until recently, since now I am in Centrados.
P. Is there currently a persecution against dissident Chavismo?
R. There are threats, intimidation, and so far there have been no arrests. But in the neighborhoods there has been a search process. What the president did, turning citizens into informers, seems very dangerous to me. I ask him to reflect. Turning citizens against each other is not legal. I am not calling for any violation of the law or for violence, but I have to say what is happening in my country.
P. What details can you offer about the repression of popular sectors that reject the CNE results?
R. I have general information, I have not been a witness. I know of complaints, which is worrying, and should be investigated by national and international human rights organizations. The young people who have been killed in protests should be compensated, not criminalize protest. In these spontaneous demonstrations, because no one called them, there is everything. Enrique Márquez and I want peace, which is not decreed or imposed by force, but rather is built with the publication of the results.
P. Is there a repeat of Operation Tun Tun (which consisted of raids and arrests of opponents in 2017)?
R. I don’t know. I want to be very cautious, responsible, and not fall into any sensationalism. You have to have a lot of emotional intelligence at this time.
P. What are the chances that Maduro will prepare for a negotiated exit if he does not win?
R. At this moment, Maduro is entrenched. They made a high-risk political decision to stay in power. We will have to see if this is legitimate and corresponds to the electoral results. That is what we want to see. He is preparing to negotiate under better conditions. With the measures he is taking, he is creating the conditions to “re-moralize” his ranks, and particularly the second line, which is demoralized. He is trying to prevent explosions, to unify his internal strength and build an international bloc – however weak it may be – and thus negotiate from a position of strength, which he has not achieved so far. All this is resolved through negotiation. Hopefully Maduro will understand this. He is very intelligent, sometimes he is underestimated. He is preparing for a negotiation, which is not happening now. That also means closing in; at this moment he is withdrawn into himself, closed in, that is why the situation is very delicate. Society cannot fall into provocation, we cannot stop peaceful and democratic protest.
P. Are you pushing a potential negotiation to the limit?
R. That may be the scenario. Now, what would Maduro negotiate? We’ll have to see, because he has also had his share. He has a reward on his head, an international arrest warrant, an investigation in the International Criminal Court for alleged human rights violations. There is a blockade on the country, on its economy, which has also affected his ability to do politics. That makes him entrench himself, because he has no guarantees. The cost of leaving and surrendering is very high compared to the cost of staying, and they are betting on staying.
P. How do you negotiate with Maduro?
R. This question should be asked of Presidents Gustavo Petro, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, and those who are trying to negotiate. The first thing is to show good will, generate trust and guarantees. The international community, and particularly the United States, has been very rough when it comes to establishing sanctions, especially personal ones. Maduro is being cornered and in situations like this, he acts as he is doing.
P. Who wins and who loses if the conflict in Venezuela escalates?
R. Venezuela is losing. Maduro is losing by winning, because it is difficult to stay in power by means of beatings and threats, with a questionable legitimacy of origin. He begins a new period of government under the suspicion of a significant sector of the population and with his ranks demoralized and confused. In addition, it will be difficult for him to manage the international blockade with Latin America against him.
P. Within the forces still operating in the government: Do you think a split could occur?
R. It is a fantasy to think of a break within the Maduro government. At different events, people have bet on the breakup of Maduroism, but that has not happened and it seems that it will not happen. It is not denied that they have contradictions, even severe ones, but they do not lead them to a breakup. That is not the way to go either, to sit and bet on that breakup. We must hold on to the Constitution.
P. What is the strategy of commissioning an audit to the Supreme Court of Justice?
R. The president has stripped the CNE, an autonomous power, of its decision-making capacity, and has transferred it through an administrative dispute, which is a protective measure, with a specificity that we do not know (until Wednesday), to the TSJ. The body to settle this is the electoral body, the rest is to judicialize a political and technical matter, whose solution must be in the hands of the citizens. This slows down the process, because now the judge will ask for evidence, call the candidates, interview them; the parties. The hacking, of which no evidence has been presented, is being used as an instrument to unleash a witch hunt and a process of intimidation. The PSUV spokesman, in his program, said that Enrique Márquez, our candidate, is involved in this hacking. Let the evidence be presented, because everyone has the right to the presumption of innocence.
P. There is the option of manual counting, right?
R. Yes, it is a last resort. What is the impediment to opening the boxes and counting? We do not know. At the same time, they are threatening and intimidating the witnesses at the polling stations. There are complaints that must be reviewed, because if they are proven, there is a flagrant violation of human rights.
P. If Edmundo González is recognized as president of Venezuela, would you assume an opposition role or would you be willing to collaborate with the new government?
R. If he wins, we support the proclamation and recognition. Now, as for supporting his policies, we don’t know. That would be counting the chickens before they are born.
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