in the background Giovanni Falcone, in the three circles: Sergio Mattarella, Carlo Nordio and Salvatore Lupo
Capaci massacre/ The mafiologist Lupo he replies to Mattarella: “End of the phenomenon? I’m not optimistic”
“The Republic has shown that the mafia can be defeated and that it is destined to end.” A powerful phrase, with which the President of the Republic Sergio Mattarella wanted to remember the Capaci massacre of 23 May 1992 in which they lost their lives, together with the judge Giovanni Falcone, my colleague Francesca Morvillo and the three escort agents Rocco Dicillo, Antonio Montinaro and Vito Schifani. A glimmer of light that gives a glimpse of the country being free from the mafia phenomenon; but is a horizon in which legality can be said to be completely restored possible? The latest maxi-investigations in Puglia and Liguria seem to demonstrate the opposite: Affaritaliani.it he talked about it with Salvatore LupoItalian historian considered among the leading experts on the topics of mafia and fascism.
Professor, how can we interpret Mattarella’s words? Is the mafia really “destined to end”?
We need to see what is meant by mafia. That every type of mafia phenomenology in the broad sense, as a criminal business phenomenon and bad politics, will disappear… well, I don’t think we can be so optimistic. If we move away from this radical conception, however, it is true that the mafia as a rooted historical phenomenon, with subjectivity, finds itself in a very bad situation.
The President of the Republic was certainly referring to these phenomena that we identify as ‘Ndrangheta, Cosa Nostra, Camorra… . Cosa Nostra, in particular, has suffered severe blows in recent years.
Are you talking about the arrest of Matteo Messina Denaro?
In reality, Cosa Nostra has been under the attention of the authorities for 30 years. Its members have not reconstituted the governing bodies, the executives have been arrested, of the terror strategy that characterized it in the case of Falcone, for example, there is no longer a trace.
Just think, more generally, of the blood crime curve: in recent decades it has collapsed, and this is a formidable indicator. This is why saying that Messina Denaro was Riina’s successor seems to me to be a journalistic formula, which has no reference to a verifiable reality. And this is why wanting to identify his successor does not take into account what has happened in the meantime.
From the reports of the District Anti-Mafia Directorate, however, a worrying scenario emerges, telling of an increasingly expanding mafia phenomenon. How do you explain it?
There are certainly mafia phenomena, but they have no relation in terms of magnitude and aggressiveness to what happened to Falcone. And I add another thing: what we see is the presence in some criminal networks of “snippets” of these groups, which have certainly faded compared to the past. Obviously, even if they are worse phenomena, they must be countered because they are dangerous and could become even more so: the mafia has become a great enemy because it has not been countered, essentially.
Thinking about the latest scandals that have engulfed Apulian and Ligurian politics?
The mafia has changed, what happens now does not remotely resemble in size and aggressiveness what happened then. There is certainly still infiltration of mafia groups into political and business malfeasance, but we don’t know if they have a marginal or central function. As regards the Ligurian scandal, in fact, we do not know whether the Riesi group had a central or ancillary function in the corruption system. And then: there is a tendency to pass off political corruption as mafia: there may be a redefinition of the concept of mafia; but words have a meaning, so if we decide to change it we must realize it.
Is the Government sending the wrong message with Minister Nordio’s justice reforms?
Let’s start by saying that there is a lot of discussion about the reforms but many have not yet been launched. As regards the prison regime of 41-bis, for example, my opinion is that a softening of these very harsh systems is reasonable, if it has been established that they are contrary to the principles of legal civilisation. But I also think that the complex mechanisms to combat organized crime put in place decades ago should not be dismantled: total disarmament, as I hear so much called for, is wrong.
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