A year ago, Oleg Orlov warned that peace at any price can be catastrophic. “A victorious, fascist Russia will inevitably become a serious threat to the security, not only of its neighbors, but also of all of Europe,” he concluded in his column. They wanted fascism and they had it, published in November 2022 in the French newspaper Mediapart. A year later, the veteran Russian activist was tried for that article by the same system, “half feudal, half corrupt state capitalism,” that he denounced: Vladimir Putin’s regime.
Oleg Orlov (Moscow, 70 years old), co-president of the Memorial Center for the Defense of Rights – an entity created after the Kremlin liquidated its historic center for the defense of human rights in 2022 – was fined 150,000 rubles, about 1,500 euros at the current poor exchange rate of the Russian currency. The activist appealed, and so did the Prosecutor’s Office, which demands three years in prison for him with the pretext that “he undermines social stability together with Memorial.” Other dissidents—such as Alexei Gorinov, Ilya Yashin, Vladimir Kara-Murza, and many other lesser-known ones—were imprisoned earlier.
Next to the entrance to his home there is a threatening graffiti with the Z of the Russian army and the phrase “war against them.” Orlov, who has defended human rights for more than 40 years, from the death throes of the Soviet Union to the repression of the Caucasus, takes it calmly: he claims that he never had any choice but to do what he considered right.
Ask. Memorial has worked for democracy in Russia for more than 30 years. Has she been of any use?
Answer. I haven’t had any other option. I thought the right thing to do was to oppose the coup plotters in 1991; I thought it was right to participate in drafting the laws for a new democratic Russia. Why should I lock myself away in my private life and do nothing?
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Q. Do you think Europe understands the Russians?
R. The future of Russia is largely decided in the fields of Ukraine. And Putin’s victory there means the preservation of this regime, which I consider fascist, for many years. It is very difficult for Europeans to imagine that people are imprisoned for many years for going out on the streets. Now a private conversation is enough. Recently, a woman spoke well of Zelensky in a spa dining room. Someone reported her and she was handed over to the Center to Combat Extremism. Therefore, before stating that Russian society does not protest, it must be understood that there is a very harsh totalitarian regime here. This is completely different from protesting in Madrid, Paris or Berlin.
Q. In his article he compares the current Russian system with the dictatorships of Franco and Salazar. Do you expect to see changes in Russia?
R. I think the situation in Russia may be very similar to what happened in Spain and Portugal. When the dictator leaves power, he dies in some way. There is often a division between the elites, as was the case in Spain. Part of these elites realize that it is no longer possible to continue the course followed by the dictator, and there are people who begin to lead the country towards a certain freedom. The role of the real opposition, and not just the political one, is very important here. The role of human rights activists, the real opposition and the unions is to pressure the Government to take power after the dictator to move towards a real and not fictitious democracy. As soon as the dictator disappears, reformers appear from among the most unexpected people around him who want changes to save themselves and so that the system does not collapse.
Q. Salazar and Franco led their countries for 40 years. Franco died in bed without a revolution against him. And now Russians are being asked to protest against Putin while Europe imposes sanctions on them. Are they of any use?
R. I don’t have a clear answer to say if they are right or wrong. It seems to me that Europe didn’t think much about it. It is naive to believe that sanctions will cause the oligarchs to overthrow Putin. They have no chance. Do you want to divide the elites? Give them the opportunity to get off the sanctions list, this will gradually increase their division. Regarding general sanctions, I also have no clear idea. Russian citizens have difficulty traveling and feel uncomfortable in Europe. Do they want them to put their hands on their heads and try to overthrow Putin? In a totalitarian regime it is naive.
Q. Now they are not only arresting political opponents, but also members of the pro-war sector who have criticized them. Do you notice war fatigue?
R. Since 2022 there have been many people in favor of the war, but the number has decreased. The fatigue is evident. If freedom of expression had not been destroyed, if we had not been punished for speaking in the street, mass discontent would be very visible. But many people are very afraid, silent or do not want to think about it.
Q. In his article he cites the myth that the Russians want a strong hand, a Stalin. Has this changed?
R. Repression has tightened. Almost all independent organizations have been closed and every week there are more arrests and new sentences. I am surprised that they have given me a lot of freedom and that I can grant you this interview. I am prepared to talk to you openly, but 90% of Russians will refuse to deal with a Western correspondent. They think that the authorities will find out tomorrow and put them in prison.
Q. You reiterate that it is impossible to hold a peaceful protest in Russia now. In the summer the Wagner mutiny took place. Maybe Putin doesn’t have everything under control?
R. I don’t think so, it doesn’t have it. If before the Wagner rebellion someone had said that there would be a military mutiny in Russia, no one would believe it. His rebellion showed a lot: generals missing and dismissed. The plane exploded, everything seems to be back in order, but there is a clear fear of military pronouncements. On the other hand, suppressing peaceful demonstration is dangerous not so much because of Wagner, but because the desire to hold non-peaceful protests will arise. Terrorism arises, an armed response emerges, and the authorities intensify repression. An increasingly brutal terror. The authorities are pushing Russia into that vicious circle.
Q. He has denounced the liquidation of the judicial system in Russia. In their process, linguists confused the jedi (from Star Wars) with the DJ of the discos. How do you rate your judgment?
R. The accusations are stupid and meaningless, they were very poorly prepared. They do not even try to properly formalize the charges in Russia, they think that any accusation will be translated into a guilty verdict. In any case, in my case the judge has generally behaved in a decent manner. This accusation would have been dismissed in a normal court, but our courts are not independent for political reasons, they will do what is said from above.
Q. How do you see relations between Russians and Ukrainians in the future?
R. I understand that a part of Ukrainian civil society does not want to talk to any Russian. It’s painful for them. They will be very difficult relations, but the maintenance of links between part of Russian civil society and part of Ukraine is some kind of guarantee for a future return to normal relations. But I understand that most Ukrainians now curse the Russians.
Q. 10 years ago there was general ecstasy in Russia over the seizure of Crimea. Putin has said that some territories of other countries were Russian. If the Kremlin had won this war easily and the West had looked the other way, do you think Putin would have gone further?
R. No matter what happens, he has lost. He’s pushing the world toward nuclear war, and I suspect he’s insulated from reality. He is a dictator who at the end of his dictatorship has reached madness, not in the sense of mental illness, but of his disconnection from reality. He undoubtedly considers himself a historical figure, a man with the historical mission of reviving the russki mir (Russian world), the Russian empire, not the Soviet Union. He foolishly thought that he would defeat Ukraine in three days, that the Ukrainian generals would overthrow “the drug addicts”—as the Kremlin labels the Ukrainian government—and take power into their own hands. In that hypothetical scenario, a part of Russian society would have felt inspired.
Q. In Spain it happened more than a century ago with the independence of Cuba.
R. There is a stereotype that our country is made up of three brother peoples: the Ukrainian, the Belarusian and the Russian. Putin’s imperialism is based on some kind of cultural code that must be overcome. I’m afraid we’re still a generation away from getting over this.
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