Luigi De Magistris will not run in the European elections in June. And even the experience at the helm of Unione Popolare is now at an end. «At this moment in my life – he says to TPI – I prefer to build bridges and relationships from the bottom up.” But the thought of running, in two years' time, to be mayor of Naples again is definitely in his head: “I don't feel like ruling it out,” he admits. Meanwhile, the former magistrate has written a book for Ponte delle Grazie with the passionate title: “Desire for the left”.
De Magistris, are the Italians the ones who want the left?
«More than you can imagine. There is a widespread left in the real country which however, for a long time, has not had adequate national political representation: this is why the right is in government.”
Are you saying that Pd and M5S are not left-wing parties?
«The Democratic Party certainly is not: if we look at the last 30 years, the dismantling of the Constitution has occurred above all at the hands of centre-left governments. As for the Five Star Movement, the Movement made the tactical-strategic choice to stay in the progressive camp but governed with Salvini, Draghi and Berlusconi.”
And to think that in the Democratic Party there are those who accuse the secretary Elly Schlein of being too left-wing.
«With the primaries, Schlein received the mandate to shift the center of gravity in that direction. But she must be more courageous and more consistent with the values of the left. Compared to the past, you are trying to make an attempt on the narrative level, in fact a little less. And in any case it is easy to support the minimum wage or take sides against differentiated autonomy if you are in opposition: the Democratic Party must be measured by what it does when it is in government.”
But could Schlein's PD become an interlocutor for the radical left?
«I have known Schlein for many years. In words there are many points of contact, but in my life I have always tried to evaluate people not so much on ideas but on facts. And on the facts, for now, I haven't seen the turning point: Schlein must be clearer, for example on the topic of war. Today, as I have known the Democratic Party in its national, regional and local dimensions, there is no condition for convergence.”
No possibility of dialogue even with the Green Left Alliance?
«They made a clear choice: that of a structural agreement with the Democratic Party. What is missing is the turning point from the point of view of constitutional values that is requested by the people of the left in the real world. Today the red-greens represent a slightly more left-wing leg within a Pd-M5S coalition which is effectively positioned at the center”.
Many voters, however, ask you to stop marching divided.
«Sooner or later we will have to start discussing a project of greater unity of all the forces to the left of the Pd and M5S. The limit of the Red-Green Alliance today is its lack of autonomy compared to the Democratic Party. But I hope for unity on the left in general, I'm not compared to them. Also given the danger facing constitutional democracy in our country and the international scenarios, I believe the time has come to try to create the conditions for opportunities for convergence. Which can happen at a national level, as well as at a local level, as long as the framework on which to build this dialogue is clear, which as far as I'm concerned must be based above all on the implementation of the Constitution. And you don't have to be sectarian or try to protect your own fence, otherwise it becomes complicated.”
Is something moving?
«At a territorial level, yes. If we look at the themes – Palestine, environment, social rights – there is dialogue and convergence between movements, associations and individual personalities. I believe that from below it is simpler, more natural, stronger. Top-down operations don't work. If, however, we begin to “sniff” about the struggles, then something more structured can arise.”
At the latest elections, however, the list she led, Unione Popolare – which brought together Rifondazione Comunista, Potere al Popolo and other acronyms – took only 1.4% of the votes.
«We only had 15 days to campaign after collecting the signatures needed to run. If we take this aspect into account, the result achieved was unthinkable before the vote. If there had not been early elections and we had gone to the polls in the spring of 2023, I believe we would have come close to the threshold. But let me clarify something.”
Say.
«Unione Popolare is a space in which the left that does not feel represented, but does not aspire to be another party that contributes to the fragmentation of the political framework, finds itself. We measure ourselves not so much on elections but on struggles.”
And how is it going?
«Up goes ahead. I think it needs to spread more at a territorial level, but I won't be able to spend energy on this in the next few years. I don't feel like a man in an enclosure like that of the Unione Popolare. I don't intend to be an organizer of political parties or movements. Today my vocation is to bring my history as a magistrate and mayor to the service of a process of greater dialogue and unity between various fields.”
I deduce that you will no longer be UP's spokesperson.
«In the near future I will no longer have the possibility, due to what I am doing on a personal and professional level. That of the spokesperson is a function that will disappear and I hope there can be a collegial type organisation, guided above all by the many young people who frequent this space”.
How are relations between Potere al Popolo and Rifondazione Comunista going?
«Popular Union has a program, a charter and a name that are very compelling, but it must go beyond the organizations that founded it. Otherwise it is no longer a political space, but an electoral alliance. The road has been very bumpy over the last year. There is great convergence on the themes and battles, but then when it comes to the organization and how to preserve the identities of the individual organizations within a new project, relationship difficulties arise. Especially between Power to the People and Communist Refoundation.”
In your book you write: «There may be great left-wing leaders, but no personal left-wing parties». Yet her movement, DeMa (Democracy and Autonomy), takes its name from her…
«DeMa is a cultural association, not a party. He took that name because, as a civic list, he supported my candidacy for mayor of Naples. I am against personal parties, but I also believe that it is hypocritical to say that we must have a leaderless politics: history teaches that a leader without a team does not win, but also that a team without a leader does not win.”
What must the anti-liberal left do to be able to obtain representation in the institutions?
«It must build a movement from the bottom that is movement-oriented and has a social vocation in its DNA, but without being sectarian and at the same time without watering down. If we want to demonstrate that an alternative exists, we need to enter the institutions while remaining outside the system.”
On the left we often hear that we need to aim for the abstentionist vote pool. But to bring these people to the polls is it enough to do politics in a traditional way or is it necessary to change the approach?
«When you are weak you need to think about two things. First: a team of credible people. Second: create struggles from below and strengthen connections. Thus, little by little, by starting to run for office in small municipalities, it is demonstrated that it is possible to build an alternative to single thinking. Of course, if you are not present in the media and if you do not have large resources, it is more difficult.”
In recent days he declared: «There are no conditions, for various reasons, for my candidacy in the European elections». What are these “miscellaneous reasons”?
«Let me make a premise. I appreciate and support the work being done to build a pacifist list. I would see a convergence between Power to the People, Michele Santoro and who else wants to be on a list that finally puts the theme of peace at the centre. I hope that this operation goes through. At the moment I believe I am more useful in building aggregations and struggles by not running for office but by doing something else. Today I prefer political struggle to a candidacy.”
But does Santoro's project convince you?
«First of all we need to see if it goes through. If you manage to create a credible and convincing team, the political space is certainly there.”
Did Santoro veto?
“Absolutely not”.
You declare yourself in favor of overcoming NATO.
«NATO today is not a defensive alliance, and perhaps it never has been. I believe that we must gradually move away from alliances whose core business is, for example, rearmament. I have always condemned Putin's aggression against Ukraine, but I cannot forget the provocations that NATO has made over the years on the borders with Russia. I believe that Europe must become an autonomous and more authoritative continent. Friend of the United States, but not subordinate. Thinking of Russia as an enemy for the next hundred years is a failure, because a Europe without Russia does not exist.”
You reject the motto «Neither with Netanyahu nor with Hamas». Which side are you on in the conflict in the Middle East?
«I am on the side of the Palestinian people. Without ifs and buts. The State of Israel is committing real genocide. Having said that, I condemn all forms of violence wherever it comes from, especially when civilians are involved.”
The international scene is increasingly multipolar, but a clear contrast is emerging in particular between the West and the Global South. In this context, should Italy look more to the West or the East to serve its own interests?
«At the time of the First Republic, Italy had the ability to stay within NATO and Europe and at the same time to dialogue with the Soviet Union and the Arab world. Today, however, our country is completely flattened in a condition of subordination to the strong European powers, NATO and the United States. And this applies to all political groups present in parliament. Italy should first of all look to the South, to create bridges with Africa and the Middle East, and work to ensure that sooner or later this conflict with Russia ends.”
Tell me three measures that the anti-liberal left should implement if it were in government.
«First: a total reversal of the war economy. Second: an immediate redistribution of wealth. Third: start a true ecological conversion that could generate a lot of work and a lot of enterprise compatible with the environment.”
When you talk about the redistribution of wealth, what do you think of?
«Hitting those who have earned through weapons and energy speculation and allocating those resources on a citizen's income and a minimum wage. And at the same time, attack large financial capitals and large real estate incomes to implement a policy on common goods: from public water to energy to the valorization of territories.”
Must the left start again from De Magistris' Naples?
«I know well that the country is one thing and a city another. But during my terms as mayor I think I demonstrated that left-wing things can be done in a clear way. It was the greatest left-wing experience of the last 40 years in our country. We were the only city governed without money to have not privatized any service of constitutional importance, from transport to waste to real estate. We worked on participation, on the environment, granted civil rights in the absence of laws. But being outside the system and not being able to count on strong media voices, that experience was little talked about outside.”
Are you thinking of running for mayor again?
«I don't rule it out. I had excluded it, but seeing the total drying up of the revolutionary soul that we had built by the Manfredi Council, the desire to have that experience again is coming back to me.”
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