SENT ON THE PAPAL FLIGHT. During the return flight from Kazakhstan, Pope Francis talks about the war in Ukraine, pronouncing himself on the advisability of sending weapons to Kiev: “Defending oneself is also an expression of love for the homeland.” Explaining his desire to keep the diplomatic channel open with Russia: “The dialogue with the aggressor stinks (and holds his nose, ed), but it must be done”. While the plane is still flying over the steppes, the Pontiff answers the questions of the journalists sitting down, so as not to tire the sick knee. He is prudent and ironic about Italian politics: «I don’t understand it. Twenty governments in twenty years, a bit strange, but everyone has their own way of dancing the tango ». He warns the West of the “messiahs of populisms”. And he reflects on China: “I don’t feel like qualifying it as undemocratic, it’s such a complex country …”.
Your Holiness, Do you think we need to supply arms to Ukraine?
“It is a political decision, which can be morally accepted if it is made according to the conditions of morality. But it can be immoral if it is done with the intention of causing more war or to sell weapons or to discard those weapons that I no longer need. Defending oneself is not only lawful, but also an expression of love for the homeland. Those who do not defend themselves, those who do not defend something, do not love it, but those who defend, love. War itself is a mistake! But the right to defense yes, yes, but to use it when necessary ».
You said: we can never justify violence. Everything that happens in Ukraine now is death. There is a red line beyond which it should not be said: are we open to dialogue with Moscow?
«It is always difficult to understand the dialogue with the states that have started the war, and it seems that the first step was on that side. It is difficult but we must not discard it, we must give the opportunity for dialogue to everyone! Because there is always the possibility that in dialogue we can change things, and also offer another point of view. I do not exclude dialogue with any power, whether it is at war, whether it is the aggressor … sometimes dialogue must be done like this, but it must be done, it “stinks” but it must be done. Always one step ahead, an outstretched hand, always! Because on the contrary, we close the only reasonable door to peace. Sometimes they don’t accept dialogue: it’s a pity! But dialogue must always be done, at least offered, and this is good for those who offer it; makes you breathe ».
In a few days in Italy there will be a vote, and there will be a new government. When you meet the next or next prime minister, what will you recommend?
«I met two Italian presidents of the highest level: Napolitano and the current one. Great. Then the other politicians do not know them. On the last trip I asked one of my secretaries how many governments Italy has had in this century: twenty. I don’t know how to explain it. I do not condemn or criticize, I simply cannot explain it. If governments change like this, there are many questions to ask. Because today being a politician, a great politician, is a difficult path. A politician who puts himself on the line for the values of the homeland, the great values, and does not put himself on the line for interests, the seat, the comforts … Countries, among them Italy, must look for great politicians, those who have the ability to do politics, which is an art. Politics is a noble vocation. Pope Saint Paul VI said that politics is one of the highest forms of charity. We must fight to help our politicians to maintain the level of high politics, not the low-level politics that does not help at all, and indeed brings down the state, impoverishes itself. Today, politics in the countries of Europe should take up the problem, for example, of the demographic winter, the problem of industrial development, natural development, the problem of migrants … come on. I’m talking about politics in general. I don’t understand Italian politics: only that figure of twenty governments in twenty years, a bit strange, but everyone has their own way of dancing the tango … you can dance in one way or another and politics can be danced in one way or another ».
In China, there are concerns about religious freedom …
«It takes a century to understand China, and we don’t live a century. We have chosen the path of dialogue. There is a bilateral commission that is doing well, slowly, because the Chinese pace is slow. I do not feel like qualifying China as undemocratic, because it is such a complex country… it is true that there are things that seem to us not to be democratic, that is true ».
And Xi Jimping?
“I did not see it”.
During the Inter-religious Congress, the loss of the West due to its moral degradation was evoked. What is his opinion on this? «The West is in danger of populism. What happens in such a socio-political state? Messiahs are born: the messiahs of populisms. We are seeing how populisms arise, I am thinking of that book by Ginzberg, “Syndrome 1933”: it says just how populism is formed in Germany after the fall of the Weimar government. We must take back the values of Europe, of the founding fathers ».
What do you think about euthanasia?
“Killing isn’t human, period. Let us kill to the beasts ».
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