ABN Amro has been rid of the 'state bank' label since the end of last year. The government dropped its stake, acquired during the credit crisis in 2008 when the bank had to be rescued, to just under 50 percent. This should drop further in the coming months, to 40 percent.
The new chapter in the long history of ABN Amro begins with the same man at the helm: at the age of 62, Robert Shaak decided to sign on as chairman of the board for another four years at the end of October. “The step below that 50 percent had great symbolic value. We are very happy with that,” he says in his modest room on the fifth floor of ABN Amro's head office. The chairman of the board has not been based at the bank for years on the luxurious top floor of the striking building, which dates from the time before the banking crisis, when ABN was still a global player.
Little of the bravado that the bankers of ABN Amro exuded at the beginning of this century is recognizable in Shaak. No tough, firm words can be expected from him. The former accountant and director of PWC formulates cautiously and avoids colorful anecdotal or personal outpourings.
In this conversation he would like to talk about the business climate in the Netherlands, both for his own bank and for the companies that are ABN Amro customers. But in his veiled words you sense the uncertainty that prevails after the political landslide following the elections for the House of Representatives, and his desire not to offend the right-wing parties that are trying to form a government.
Shaak made significant interventions at ABN Amro in his first years. The bank is still only concentrating on Northwest Europe. Global trade finance went out the window. Investments in oil and gas outside Europe were halted. “When I took office in 2020, we immediately said: we must see what this bank, with its current size, is good at and what it is not good at. Then you talk about scale. Then you talk about the risk you are willing to take. We have now truly become a different bank than the image of the past, which we are sometimes mistaken for.”
With this latest step by the government, Shaak hopes that the image that ABN Amro cannot survive without state support will disappear. “The state is showing that it has the confidence that it can reduce its importance and that we can implement our own strategy.”
Does ABN Amro feel freer due to the reduction of state interest?
“The state has behaved like a professional shareholder in recent years. Over the past three and a half years we have already been able to execute our strategy the way we wanted to execute our strategy.
“The fact that a state is reducing its share also means that investors will look more closely at ABN Amro shares. Precisely in order to attract more investors, we benefit from more free trade in ABN Amro shares.”
Do you look with fear at the opportunity that other banks or investors will have to acquire you?
“We implement our own strategy, on our own strength. And we will notice what the rest of the world does with this, including parties that may want to take a closer look at us.”
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Do you fear a different attitude from the government towards your bank, now that other political parties will form the government?
“We always take into account what happens in The Hague. Not a day goes by, especially in this phase, that you don't have to keep yourself informed and keep in touch.”
Were you already in discussions with PVV, NSC and BBB before the elections?
“When new parties come along, you always have to check who the financial spokespersons are and enter into discussions with them. We have known the PVV for some time, BBB is relatively new and NSC is completely new. So that conversation is underway or is starting.”
The bank tax was recently increased, partly with the support of these parties, because a majority of the House believes that banks make too high profits. Does that worry you?
“The discussion about the increase in bank taxes affects more than just banks. The House of Representatives wants to use the proceeds to finance other ambitions [met name om inkomenssteun aan minima en de middenklasse te kunnen geven]. But such a decision to impose an additional tax on bank profitability makes the government less predictable. Because an intervention is carried out immediately.
“One of the topics that we regularly discuss within the bank and with customers is the business climate in the Netherlands. I look at that predictability, the stability that entrepreneurs need. Clarity when it comes to the major themes at play: nitrogen, climate transition.
“If there is no predictability, you stagnate on very large and important files. Uncertainty breeds uncertainty. We simply cannot afford that as a society.”
Given the importance of sustainability in ABN Amro's strategy, are you concerned that a new right-wing cabinet will put an end to many climate policies?
“The results of the elections, the sentiments in Dutch society, they are there. You can find all kinds of things there. I see it as an outcome of a democratic process.
“I am much more concerned about the effects on inclusive thinking. I have lived and worked all over the world and returned to the Netherlands. What I learned abroad is that you will gain a lot if you think and act inclusively. Whether that is in your personal relationships, in your organization or in society. We must ensure that society excludes groups of people.”
Does it also affect you personally? At your previous employer, accounting firm PriceWaterhouse [nu PwC] You were already a pioneer fifteen years ago with an inclusivity policy. That was not yet common practice at the time.
“Well, Dutch society has made a choice. And that choice must now be made explicitly. What does this mean? That is why it is very important that the cabinet formation is completed quickly, because then you can also see what the consequences are of this thinking.
“What is important to me is how you act as a bank itself, how you implement inclusive banking. This means, for example, that you continue to keep an eye on those who cannot necessarily keep up with the digital world. How do we deal with that? For example, we now have care coaches present at the homes of customers who cannot participate in the digital violence.
“As a bank, we are clear about what we stand for. And that doesn't change. That doesn't change because of elections.”
ABN Amro decided a number of years ago not to invest in oil and gas outside Europe. Is this a good time now, with the increasing pressure on banks to become more sustainable?
“As a bank, ABN Amro already decided under my predecessor Kees van Dijkhuizen in 2017 and 2018 to put sustainability at the heart of the bank. I have very emphatically tried to connect with that climate strategy.
“The decision to stop oil and gas outside Europe also had to do with considering where we can add the most value. An oil and gas portfolio in Dallas doesn't fit that bill.
“We have reduced more than 8 billion euros in loans in the oil and gas industry since 2020. But on the other hand, we are now again investing in the climate transition, in line with our strategy. ”
Is ABN Amro also phasing out investments in oil and gas within Europe?
“Oil and gas is currently only a very small part of the total loans. What we now have in oil and gas is 1.1-1.2 billion euros, our total loan book is 200 billion.
“We are further phasing out by making agreements with our customers. We are shifting investments from fossil fuels to sustainable energy sources.”
On January 19, Milieudefensie will take one of the Dutch companies in the financial sector to court. That could also be ABN Amro. How do you view that?
“I understand very well that Milieudefensie has its agenda and that is also good. We are also in continuous discussions with them. We have to explain what we are doing every time. So you can bring those worlds a little closer together.
“We have been anchoring our ambitions in our daily business operations since 2022. It should not stop at nice reports, ultimately it is about concrete decisions. What choices do we make with our customers?
“Sometimes this also means that we reject loans or say goodbye to customers who are not making sufficient progress to meet our sustainability ambitions.
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Couldn't ABN Amro have picked up the pace already? The choice for a sustainability strategy dates back to 2017/2018, but will not be finalized until 2022.
“I think that society as a whole should have acted faster. But we say that, while there is still a group within society that says: all of this climate change will take some time.”
“If I refer to ABN Amro, I am extremely happy with the choices made in 2017/2018. Because that meant that we could immediately start further concretizing our own objectives in 2020.
“And yes, that took a while. We previously prepared impact reports, which allowed us to broadly see the sustainability consequences of our loan portfolio. But in order to be more specific to our customers about what we wanted from them, we also had to understand that impact per sector. We took the time for that.
“Of the sectors we serve, we see five that emit the most CO2-intensive: shipping, oil, gas, mortgages and commercial real estate. We were the first to write a good climate plan for those sectors. And we are implementing that now.”
It is not easy to find bank managers. Several (ex-)bankers are at risk of being personally indicted for their role in failed anti-money laundering policies. Your colleague Martijn Gribnau from de Volksbank is giving up after four years. You have just been reappointed for four years. Are those others crazy or are you crazy?
“Everyone has to make their own decision whether or not to accept a job. For me it is very important that I stay very close to myself. What were my intrinsic motivators for doing this four years ago? They still apply to me. In my first years we were able to lay a solid foundation for the future at the bank. That gives me an incredible amount of energy to continue.”
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