The names of Antonio Damasio and his wife Hannahwho have been working hand in hand for decades, will go down in the history of neuroscience for their contributions to the study of consciousness and the way in which the physical substrate shapes our thoughts and decision-making. The author of the successful book Descartes’ error has visited Madrid these days to participate in the Future Trends Forum from the Bankinter Innovation Foundation, which on this occasion has revolved around “embodied” artificial intelligence.
At 80 years old, Damásio is open to the changes brought about by technology and artificial intelligence, but he also believes that some of these tools, such as social networks, have facilitated the polarization and political tension that exists throughout the globe. The director of the Brain and Creativity Institute at the University of Southern California (USC) assures that he would not implant a chip to improve his cognitive abilities because he does not need it, and his lively conversation is good proof of this. We chatted with him after the meeting and conference on the future he offered at the Ritz hotel this Tuesday.
If “consciousness arises from the alliance between the brain and the body,” will artificial intelligence need a body?
Well, according to our work, our consciousness requires this marriage between body and brain. But it is not impossible that there is another way to generate consciousness for an artificial device without the needs that we biologically have for our type of consciousness.
However, some scientists are working on getting an AI to do the mirror test and recognize itself, a more ’embodied’ version of this type of intelligence.
Yes, in general I would say that it is more difficult to generate consciousness in a device that does not have life, due to the logic of consciousness that we know. If we didn’t need control of our life in our body, we probably wouldn’t be conscious. It’s a kind of side effect of that process, and it arises because you have a vested interest in nature, an interest in staying alive as long as possible. So consciousness is in the service of the process of life, which, by the way, is quite different from the way people normally conceive of consciousness.
Consciousness is a kind of side effect of the process of being alive
In that definition, there could be many other animals or creatures that are also conscious, right?
Of course. In fact, when you look around you, all mammals, birds, reptiles and fish are conscious individuals.
Throughout his career he has stated that our feelings and thoughts are mediated by some physical changes in our bodies. Could you explain this very simply?
First of all, we must distinguish between what we call feelings or physical sensations (“feelings“) and emotions. Homeostatic feelings occur very early in the history of life and in organisms in general. While emotions appear much later in evolution and in turn cause their own type of feelings. At the base of everything are our feelings of existence, those that have to do with the regulation of life, for example, hunger, thirst, pain, nausea… They are homeostatic sensations that constantly reflect the state within your body.
And do they affect your decisions?
Indeed. They affect your decisions, but it is actually the feelings that emerge from emotions that have the greatest impact on our decisions.
There is an Italian neurosurgeon (Sergio Canavero) who is still promising to do a head transplant, why is that a stupid idea?
I don’t know the details, but—even if it were possible to put a head on a different body—I don’t think it would be a good idea. I think that would be a big problem, because a lot of what we have developed at the base of our psychology is tied to what our body has delivered to that brain. This transplant it would be a mixture of two creatures, the creature that gave rise to the feelings and then the creature that is thinking.
All because we have this dualistic view that mind and brain are separate things, right?
Indeed. Our consciousness is not only the result of the work of the brain. It is the result of the integration of the brain and the body, the two things work together. What we feel is not created by the brain, but is created by the interaction of the body and the brain. The images that constitute our feelings come from the fragments of muscle and mucosa in the stomach, and the mouth, and many other places, from what is really happening in the body. Feelings are not ghosts in the air, they are made of what we physically are.
Feelings are not created by the brain, they are created by interaction with the body. They are not ghosts in the air, they are made of what we physically are
This same Monday, a team has shown that people with spinal cord injuries can recover movement with deep brain stimulation of the hypothalamusunrelated to movement. Does it change what we know about how these neural pathways are connected?
I haven’t read the work, but there are numerous parts of the brain that have to do with movement, even if they are not necessarily in the place where it is generated. Movement ends up being generated from structures in the spinal cord, brain stem, and the brain itself. For example, the basal ganglia are far removed from the structure involved in movement, yet their deterioration causes people with Parkinson’s disease to have problems with movement.
To what extent have you and your wife learned from damaged brains like yours? Phineas Gage? Do you feel like engineers trying to learn from a broken engine?
Indeed, because that’s actually the way it works: studying something that went wrong in a machine. But in this case the machine It is very complex. Even a car or a plane are very simple compared to our brain. What the study of brain injuries allows is to locate a particular problem and then study which part went wrong to understand how it works together with the rest of the system.
The study of brain lesions allows us to understand how the entire system works
Are our brains prepared to live with so many devices and screens? What do you think of the theory that they are part of our “extended mind”?
Well, many of the AI devices are extensions of our bodies and, to some extent, our minds. There are ways to perform certain operations better and faster. So it’s an improvement, especially in the area of memory capacity and in the area of speed. I think having AI is useful because it gives us even better insight into who we are and how different we are from machines.
And will it reshape our brain in the future or is it doing it right now?
Yes, absolutely. But the degree to which it reshapes our internal machines is limited. It reshapes it, in a way refines it, reorganizes things a little, but it doesn’t make radical transformations.
What do you think then of projects like Neuralinkby Elon Musk? Do you think that in the future technology will be able to expand our capabilities?
Well, theoretically, it’s not impossible. There are already implants to try to stop epileptic seizures or help the motor system. The question is the precision with which you will be able to make those “improvements”. And the other question is: why would you do it? You know, I’m fine the way I am. I’m not interested in having a chip in my brain that transforms my mind, I want to think with my own system.
I’m not interested in having a chip in my brain that transforms my mind, I want to think with my own system
There was talk that AI would do the tedious work and now it seems to be entering the realm of creativity, do you think it will be serious competition for humans?
Well, in relation to visual arts or music, if AI gets the secret of how to do it, they can do potentially very interesting things for us. I don’t have any problem with that. I think that’s one way to explore humanity and that’s perfectly fine.
How can neuroscience help us fight the political polarization in which we live?
Oh, that’s a very interesting question. And I really don’t know, because I think what is happening humanly on a political level is very, very worrying. And very sad. Maybe the technology around us has had an effect. I wouldn’t be surprised, for example, if social media has had a negative effect on the way we humans operate, because instead of relating directly, we are making our relationships very remote. This is my impression. I mean, it’s not scientific.
Perhaps the technology around us has had an effect on conflicts, our relationships are less physical and very remote
Some of your colleagues think that political ideas are so ingrained in our brains that when someone attacks them we feel like a physical attack. Is this one of the reasons for this type of confrontations?
It is. We live in a very worrying moment for humanity. And just look at all the conflicts that are happening around the world right now. There are conflicts everywhere.
And many of them are a consequence of a tidal wave that someone started in our brain in the first place, right?
Yes. Exactly. Someone has stirred those waters before.
Any advice on how we could protect ourselves from this anger or these attacks on our brain?
Let’s try to have a good glass of cava, for example.
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