“Can you imagine if we had all the records scanned on the Internet and you entered your ID number on a web page and the image of the voting record from your center appeared? Wouldn’t that generate more confidence? That’s what it’s all about, that as citizens we can face and overcome the obstacles that the National Electoral Council has placed in the way of transparency and trust in the electoral process.” María Corina Machado (Caracas, 56 years old) did not make these statements on Friday, during the interview with EL PAÍS. They are not even recent, although they summarize the plan with which she has put Nicolás Maduro in check after the elections of last July 28. The Venezuelan opposition leader made these statements 16 years ago, in 2008, when she had already been specializing in electoral transparency issues for some time and Hugo Chávez was in power.
Remembering that interview, a video that has gone viral this week, is the only moment in the half-hour conversation in which Machado gives a smile. It is 9:00 in Caracas when the video conference is activated and the Venezuelan politician appears seated on what looks like a sofa with a white wall behind her. She makes sure that there is no detail that could give an idea of where she is. More than a week ago she decided to take shelter, to live in semi-clandestine conditions – after attending the demonstration on August 3 in Caracas – in the face of the threat of being arrested. The Venezuelan Attorney General’s Office, controlled by Chavismo, opened a criminal investigation against her and Edmundo González Urrutia after they published a statement in which they asked the Armed Forces to stop the repression, a text that the opposition presidential candidate – she was disqualified by Chavismo – signed as president-elect.
The case, says Machado, is part of the “brutal” repression – he repeats the adjective on more than one occasion – that the Venezuelan government has unleashed since July 29, one day after the presidential election and in which, according to Maduro himself, more than 2,000 people have been arrested.
That morning, the National Electoral Council, also in the hands of the ruling party, declared the current president the winner of the elections, although two weeks later it has not provided any proof of victory. The opposition, for its part, has published almost all the minutes after the collection by witnesses at the voting centers, an operation ―identical to the one he already mentioned in 2008― in which, according to Machado, hundreds of thousands of people were involved. These minutes, scanned and uploaded to a website, with verifiable data and votes table by table, give Edmundo González the victory with 67% of the votes, compared to 30% for Maduro. The publication of these minutes has led several countries, including the United States, and organizations such as the Carter Center to recognize Edmundo González as the winner.
“Obviously we were prepared, there have been dozens of elections with fraud and cheating of different magnitudes and we had never had the evidence in hand. This time we said: ‘It’s going to be different’,” says Machado, once for many the representative of the most extreme sector of the Venezuelan opposition, supported by the most reactionary leaders in the world; today the undisputed leader and unifier of the entire spectrum that seeks change in the Caribbean country.
Two weeks have passed since the election, a time that in troubled Venezuela is equivalent to months anywhere else on the planet. With Maduro entrenched, opposition leaders sheltered and the population mired in fear and uncertainty caused by the fact that the country has entered uncharted territory, all eyes are on the attempts by Brazil, Colombia and Mexico to try to achieve a negotiated solution to the crisis.
Ask. What comes next?
Answer. In 25 years we have never been here, with the regime so weak and us so strong. This farce that this is a polarized country is falling apart, the bases of Chavismo are with us, the bases of the Armed Forces are with us. We had already given them the social defeat, we needed to ratify it with numbers so that the whole world knew what we already knew. Today Maduro has no legitimacy as a result of his repressive escalation, which is the only thing he has left. He is increasingly rejected, including by his allies, this has not happened before. Maduro is not correctly evaluating his options, he is entrenched around a military leadership that is capable of doing a lot of damage, as he has shown. The challenge is to make Maduro understand that his best option is to accept the terms of a negotiated transition. Many countries, many governments are aligned around that.
P. Brazil, Colombia and Mexico are trying to push for a negotiated solution to the crisis. Most of the international community has joined forces around this initiative. Can we say that negotiations are already underway?
R. We can now talk about a transition, although I don’t know if it’s about negotiation. For there to be a negotiation, both parties must want it. We are determined, with four conditions. First, a negotiation that starts from respect for the popular sovereignty of July 28. I believe that it is a position that unites all the countries of the world when they say that there must be an impartial verification of the minutes. Ours are available so that whoever wants to analyze them, verify them, can do so, that is what our open database is for. Second, it is a negotiation for the transition, not for sharing power or other ideas that have emerged. Third, it is a negotiation in which we are willing to give guarantees, safe-conducts and incentives. [a Maduro y al chavismo]which I will not elaborate on because it is obviously inconvenient to do so and would be the subject of the negotiation itself. Fourthly, a negotiation in which the country that elected its leaders and representatives feels well represented.
P. That scenario is still a long way off. What is the priority objective?
R. Stop the repression. If I have to ask the international community for one thing, it is that this has not been denounced as it deserves. We are talking about Maduro bragging daily that he has more than 2,000 people detained, they are taking electoral witnesses from their homes, they are looking for those who volunteered on election day.
P. What are the red lines? What is not negotiable?
R. The result of July 28 is not negotiable, popular sovereignty is not negotiable. Please, who in the world can imagine holding another election? There was already one here, under the regime’s terms, with an absolutely unequal campaign. We went under their terms, with their machines, with their records… The records we have are official documents of the CNE. Under their rules, we won, the world knows that we swept the board.
P. The three countries pushing for an exit are governed by the left, ideologically the opposite of yours. How confident are you in them?
R. It is clear in the world that Venezuela is not a left-right issue. It is a discussion, a struggle, that is much more transcendent. This has to do with freedom versus totalitarianism; with justice against the most corrupt regime on the planet; with democratic stability against a regime that shakes the stability not only of Venezuela, but of the region. It has to do with essential human rights issues. On Venezuela there is a very important alignment even in countries with enormous tension, such as the United States. Or in Europe, on how many issues is there absolute unanimity among the 27?
P. But what do you think about the role of Brazil, Colombia and Mexico?
R. I have to acknowledge that the behavior of these countries since before the electoral process has been correct. They have contributed at crucial moments to making it clear to Maduro that not holding the electoral process was a red line. I recognize this and I am grateful for it. The only one with whom I have not had interaction has been the Government of Mexico. Since the election, the countries that have recognized Edmundo’s victory have taken a correct position, but I can understand that there are countries that have a more prudent position to maintain the channel of communication with the regime. I am a liberal, everyone knows what I think. But beyond ideological affinities, these three countries understand very well that the only thing left for Maduro is violence, as he warned. These three countries understand the enormous danger that Maduro’s attempt to hold on to power by force poses for Latin America. That would produce a migratory wave of three or four million people in the short term.
P. In the first conversation between the presidents of these countries, it was suggested that Edmundo González should be at the centre of the negotiations. Would you be willing to not be at the centre, to give up the lead role?
R. At the centre are the Venezuelans and Edmundo is the president-elect. Now, the reality is that it is the Venezuelans who elect their representatives, they did so in the primaries and on July 28. Those who have the responsibility and the legitimacy are Edmundo and I, and it is not the international community who elects the representatives of the Venezuelans. Much less Maduro, who has done so in the past. Edmundo and I are a team, an indissoluble block.
P. There is another group of countries and leaders, such as the Argentine Javier Milei and other Latin American presidents and former presidents, who have always supported you and are asking for much more drastic solutions, who are not in favour of negotiations or want more sanctions against Chavismo. What do you say to them?
R. We all want the same thing, we all want a peaceful and orderly transition. Many of them have insisted that it is an urgent process. Today Maduro feels that the cost of repression is zero, that he can kill young people, make leaders disappear, and the cost is zero. He must be made to understand that the cost of repression is high and, therefore, that his best option is to accept the terms of a negotiated transition.
P. Edmundo González signed a statement this week as “president-elect,” which has generated much controversy, bringing to mind Juan Guaidó, who proclaimed himself interim president of Venezuela in 2019. What did you think?
R. I will answer you using the words of the Chilean president, Gabriel Boric. Here the self-proclaimed president is Nicolás Maduro. Edmundo González is the president-elect because the results and official records show it. Let’s not mix things up, because the experience of the interim government has nothing to do with what is happening now, which is the product of more than 12 million people who voted. Venezuelans know this and the world knows it.
P. Who do you trust within Chavismo and the circle close to Nicolás Maduro?
R. I don’t know anyone in Maduro’s inner circle. It’s no longer a question of trust, but of alignment of incentives. They do know that I am a man of my word and they know that I keep my word.
P. Do you think they will arrest you or Edmundo González?
R. In Venezuela, everything is possible. I feel that in his desperation, Maduro has opted for the most dangerous path: entrenching himself, surrounding himself with a high military command. I think it is a huge mistake on his part and a huge risk for Venezuelans.
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