Minister, you met Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, who was just back in the Middle East, also to reiterate German support for Israel's right to self-defense. In Berlin you notice that you are becoming increasingly lonely with this position in the world. Would you agree with that?
I have personally visited the Middle East, before the atrocities of Hamas and after the atrocities of Hamas. We understand Germany's historical position towards Israel in relation to history and the Shoah. But we also recognize that we have different views on this conflict. It is important that we emphasize the terrible nature of the atrocities and we are doing so, I also visited an affected kibbutz. However, we believe that we need an immediate cessation of hostilities and a humanitarian ceasefire. You can't bomb Gaza without killing innocent civilians, innocent children. It is a densely populated area. I accept Israel's right to take action against Hamas. But I do not believe that the civilian population of Gaza should be collectively punished.
This sounds like: We recognize Israel's right to self-defense, but criticize it when Israel also uses it.
No, it's not that. But I don't see an offensive, aggressive bombing campaign against Gaza as self-defense. I believe that Israel has the right to persecute Hamas in light of the October 7 attack and continued rocket fire. But I think the way they do it is completely counterproductive. It is wrong when you look at the number of civilians killed.
In the EU, Germany and Ireland are something like the opposite poles when it comes to discussing the war in Gaza. A former minister of your country wrote that Israel had an Irish problem. How does this such a different perspective come about?
I think German history influenced the German reaction. And I also think that Ireland's history makes you sympathize with those who suffered. The Palestinians have suffered enough. We are not anti-Israel, we have a rich Jewish tradition in Ireland. But the Irish have historically had sympathy for people who strive for self-determination and their own state. Self-determination was a key theme of the Irish independence movement in the early 20th century. In this respect there are historical connections. But we have previously criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West Bank, which prevents a viable Palestinian state. The motivation for our actions is based on the framework of the United Nations Charter and international humanitarian law. We believe that Israel's security is best ensured by a viable Palestinian state that can live in harmony with Israel.
At least on this point there is agreement with the position in Berlin. From a German perspective, however, it is clear that only as a partner who enjoys Israel's trust can we look for a solution for the future with states in the region. Do you find that convincing?
I fully accept these efforts to find a political solution to this problem. Germany has reached out to states in the region and continues to do so, which is important. However, the extent to which Israel is able to be integrated into a peace process is currently questionable. That's a shame, I would like to be able to bring Israel to the table with a view to a two-state solution.
The opposition in Ireland has called for Israel to be brought before the International Criminal Court on charges of genocide. South Africa has already done this, Germany rejects the accusation. Will you join South Africa?
First of all, we made a submission in 2004 regarding the occupied territories in the West Bank, which we believe constitutes a violation of international humanitarian law. With regard to the Genocide Convention, the court must first make a decision, following South Africa's request, on interim measures such as calls for a cessation of hostilities and unhindered humanitarian access to Gaza. We support these demands. Then South Africa must submit a so-called memorial to the case. We take our responsibility very seriously and want to read the memorial first and see on what basis the court decides on the application for interim measures. After all, these are legal submissions and not political statements.
But is it possible that in this case you would join South Africa in accusing Israel of genocide?
We would only consider this later after the aforementioned legal review.
The German federal government complains about the political instrumentalization of the Genocide Convention.
I understand why she does this. Once again: We will examine this thoroughly from a legal perspective. But what is happening there is really profound in many areas and a cause for concern – also in view of the statements made by Israeli government ministers about the expulsion of the Palestinians.
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