Guns or Political Pressure? During Chancellor Scholz’s visit to Washington, Anne Will discusses German foreign policy with her guests.
Berlin – Olaf Scholz has to “make it very clear that he doesn’t want war”: The American historian and Pulitzer Prize winner (2004 for “Gulag: A History”) Anne Applebaum, who is connected to “Anne Will” from Washington, has no problem with clear words. Her point of criticism: alleged lack of determination in relation to the crisis in Ukraine. Germany must make it clear to Putin that a conflict with Ukraine would have devastating consequences for Russia. Anne Will* supports the thesis with current survey values*: 65 percent do not find the current Chancellor sufficiently assertive.
The invited SPD General Secretary Kevin Kühnert is counted. That’s a hasty picture, he complains: “Olaf Scholz* has been in office for seven weeks now,” which is far too short to demand hasty results. In addition, “Ukraine” does not represent “a new conflict” at all. There would be a “continuity of governments” here – above all in the refusal to deliver arms. Kühnert ordered the criticism of political opponents of the Scholz government: There are certainly “some” who want to give the impression “that Germany is an unstable partner”.
“Anne Will” – these guests discussed with:
- Kevin Kuehnert (SPD) – general secretary
- Jürgen Trittin (Alliance ’90/The Greens) – Foreign policy spokesman for the parliamentary group
- Dietmar Bartsch (The Left) – faction leader
- Andriy Yaroslavovych Melnyk – Ambassador of Ukraine in the Federal Republic of Germany
- Anne Applebaum – American-Polish historian and journalist
- Ina Ruck – Head of the ARD studios in Moscow
“Words or weapons – where does Germany stand in the Ukraine conflict?” Will and her guests discuss the German government’s foreign policy course, which has already made it clear: commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, economic support, diplomatic efforts at the highest level – but no arms deliveries. A course that not everyone in the group likes. If Putin “decided to wipe Ukraine off the map, then he will do it,” Applebaum warns of Russian military power in Europe, noting that she also “speaks as a European.” Applebaum is married to Polish EU politician and former Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski, who moved to Poland in 2006.
Ukrainian embassy sends an appeal to Will: send us defensive weapons
The conflict on the Ukrainian border has now lasted eight years. According to the 2019 UN report, the war with Russia has already claimed around 13,000 lives. Also the Ukrainian Ambassador Andriy Yaroslavovych Melnyk has no doubts about Putin’s intentions of conquest, who wants to “erase Ukraine from the map”. At Will, Melnyk sends an appeal to the German government, demanding “defensive weapons” for Ukraine. Germany must “wake up from its slumber” and recognize that “the situation is very serious.” It would be about “peace or war”, about “to be or not to be”.
The head of the ARD capital city studio, Ina Ruck, later pointed out the severe trauma in the country, which had lost half its population in the Second World War. In her research, historian Applebaum also showed, among other things, that Stalin deliberately pushed ahead with one of the country’s worst hunger crises in 1932, which cost the lives of up to seven million Ukrainians. But Ruck also attests to Putin’s backwardness. He didn’t realize that he had “lost” the former Soviet “brother country” in the meantime.
Trittin doubts the success of arms deliveries “at the last minute”
On the other hand, the foreign policy spokesman for the Greens, Jürgen Tritten, sits in the group emotionally counteracting and deliberately relaxed – at least to the outside world. He explains the long-term goals: Germany wants to stabilize Ukraine economically, that is the best way to counter the military attacks by Russia. The soothing words infuriate Melnyk: “There are no nuances! Either you are on our side…” he almost threatens. “Refusing arms deliveries means abandoning us Ukrainians”.
But Trittin doesn’t let himself be disturbed: “I can’t see that,” he says clearly in the direction of Melnyk. And reminds of Angela Merkel*. It was “thanks to the German Chancellor” that Ukraine “became a transit country for Russian gas again”. “This shows,” said Trittin, that Germany and Europe have a common interest in “guaranteeing Ukraine’s security as a partner country of the European Union.”
According to Trittin, there is the idea that German arms deliveries “at the last minute” would have a deterrent effect on Putin. However, he would agree with what the “majority of NATO, including the USA, and Europe believe: namely that deterrence happens through political measures”. Putin is currently being made clear “that Russia is jeopardizing its entire economic and political relationship with Europe if it further restricts Ukraine’s sovereignty.”
Ukrainian ambassador rows back after Dietmar Bartsch interjected
Anne Will now confronts the Ukrainian ambassador with another survey: “71 percent of Germans think it’s wrong to deliver arms to Ukraine.” Dietmar Bartsch also gets things down to earth: It’s not as if “the invasion will happen tomorrow happen”, he interjects and mentions the Ukrainian defense minister, who himself denied that he could imagine an invasion. Melnyk rows back: “He said that so that there would be no panic.” People should keep calm. But that now sounds like a confirmation of the previous speaker.
Jürgen Trittin announced that Germany intends to hold back on arms deliveries, not only in relation to Ukraine. Robert Habeck’s ministry is currently drafting a law “that will turn the previously non-binding principles on arms exports into binding law”. SPD colleague Kevin Kühnert also finds that Germany – currently the fourth largest arms exporter in the world, which exported armaments worth nine billion euros in 2021 – must “endeavour” to “generally shut down” these exports.
Conclusion of the “Anne Will” talk
Ukraine is afraid, but fear is always a bad advisor. Acting with a cool head has often proven to be a more successful strategy. Anne Will showed the different positions with her choice of guests. The German position did not seem wrong. (Verena Schulemann)
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