A crippling vaccination campaign and a “scare maker” Karl Lauterbach? Markus Lanz debates the Corona situation in Germany – among others with Sahra Wagenknecht.
Hamburg – Markus Lanz only had female guests on Tuesday: “It turned out that society is becoming more diverse,” the ZDF talk show host presented this fact succinctly before the corona pandemic – and especially vaccinations – got down to business goes.
The roles in the debate are clearly distributed: Left-wing politician Sahra Wagenknecht said at the beginning with a view to planned easing in England: “If you can of course protect more and more those who are actually at high risk through vaccination, then you have to say: at some point one also has to repeal measures ”, she judges. “And these extremely high incidences are currently associated with a relatively relaxed situation in hospitals. If it stays that way, then I think that’s okay. If that changes, I think England will take other measures as well. That’s obvious.”
The virologist Helga Rübsamen-Schaeff assesses the current situation in Germany differently: “In my opinion, we are not yet ready to loosen up. I took a look this morning, what about the hospital beds in England? In mid-May, when the first easing was made, they were around 100, now they are around 430. ”, she warns. Ethics Council boss Alena Buyx argues in a similar direction: “The more those who have special risks are protected, the slower hospital numbers will rise. But they will definitely go up when you have such rates of increase in the incidence, that is completely clear, as long as the entire population is not vaccinated, because at some point the virus will find its way. “
Corona debate at Lanz (ZDF): Wagenknecht and Buyx are discussing the vaccination campaign
The Weser courier-Journalist Anja Maier does not understand, however, where the widespread fear of vaccinations in some parts of the population comes from: “After a year as a society we have waited for something to happen, that we somehow regain a bit of normalcy, the vaccination is now like sour beer. ”“ Something went wrong communicatively ”, she complains.
This is the key word for the vaccination debate. Wagenknecht dampens expectations that are too high: there can only be “real herd immunity” if the corona vaccines do what “is the case with other vaccines, namely the so-called sterile immunity, which means that it cannot be passed on”. That is not the case with the vaccines currently approved by the bank.
Buyx interrupts the left in agreement: “Especially since Delta.” Encouraged by the encouragement, Wagenknecht continues: The debate about compulsory vaccination for teachers and other groups is incomprehensible to her. “People protect themselves with the vaccination. And everyone has to decide that.” Buyx interrupts her again: “But also others.” Talk host Lanz is happy and smiles: “Now the discussion begins.”
“Markus Lanz” – these were his guests on July 13th:
- Sahra Wagenknecht – Left politician
- Anja Maier – journalist
- Helga Rübsamen-Schaeff – virologist
- Alena Buyx – ethicist
Maier corrects Wagenknecht’s statement about vaccination protection: “You don’t just protect yourself. You also protect others. Those that are dear to you or those you don’t know – it doesn’t matter. It is also a bit of responsibility. ”Wagenknecht counters:“ Yes, but you can transfer it without knowing it. ”Buyx then steps in:“ But it is much less likely that that will happen. It’s true, sterile immunity has probably been off the table since Delta, which is a shame, because of course we would all have liked to have had it. But of course it is the case that people who have been vaccinated twice pass the virus on much less often. It is a decent reduction, which means that you are already protecting the others. You always do both. “
Corona-Talk: Lauterbach and Lafontaine not among the guests – but part of the “Markus Lanz” group
Two gentlemen who are not even present themselves contribute significantly to the sharpness of the discussion in the women’s group. The rest of the group does not think that Wagenknecht’s husband and ex-politician Oskar Lafontaine (left) handed out to Karl Lauterbach (SPD) at the weekend and brought the corona experts close to the pharmaceutical lobby. Maier asks: “Where does the expertise come from? Everyone holds up a stick and carries it to the other corner. Difficult for the people who live here. ”Talk host Lanz asked Wagenknecht whether her husband had secretly studied epidemiology. She replies: “I don’t think you have to be a virologist to notice that in the last few months there have been predictions that have not come true in the end, but that were incredibly frightening.”
“The pharmaceutical industry,” explains Wagenknecht, “which has massive, also political influence, also does lobby work and is therefore not entirely unsuccessful, I think that is undisputed. That doesn’t mean that everyone who says subjectively that very bad conditions are to be expected is on the pharmaceutical industry’s paid ticket ”. Wagenknecht does not want to know that Lafontaine’s statement suggests this connection, as talk show host Lanz clarifies: “It does not say that Karl Lauterbach is a lobbyist for the pharmaceutical industry. It says that Karl Lauterbach is one of those – and that’s definitely true – who always set the alarm level to the highest level. He’s been doing that for a year and a half. He does this out of personal conviction. I know him. He doesn’t do it because someone pays him for it, he sees it that way. “
“Markus Lanz” works on Lafontaine’s remarks
Lafontaine criticizes Alena Buyx, “the statements of the experts are suspicious because they sit on the lap of the pharmaceutical industry.” Wagenknecht defends the statement again: “I think we have to point out: Of course there is an increasing number of paid in our society Expertise. That’s so. It’s not just from the pharmaceutical lobby, it’s from other companies too. It has something to do with the fact that universities are underfunded and dependent on third-party funding, everything like that. It is a fact. If you deny that, you deny reality. “Alena Buyx promptly contradicts:” Nobody denies that. But that’s not the point. I’ll probably be with you too. “Lafontaine’s statement, however, refers to” experts who speak publicly about vaccination. And that’s just something else. You can’t say in general: This is pharmaceutical criticism. “
“It would probably be the very best,” says Maier, “that Mr. Lafontaine would now be sitting here and discuss it with him. But in fact I now have the feeling with you too, Ms. Wagenknecht, that you are making the big circle to get around the specifics. ”“ The criticism of Karl Lauterbach, ”says Wagenknecht,“ relates to his repeatedly extremely negative predictions. “These were“ always exaggerated ”and“ clearly exaggerated ”:“ Not because someone pays him for it, no, because he sees it that way. But it is a problem, this scare-mongering. ”Wagenknecht reports that she herself was afraid of bringing the virus home with her before her husband’s vaccination: Fear is not an irrational reaction, but it should not be stirred up.
“Markus Lanz” – the conclusion of the show
The “Markus Lanz” guests are enthusiastic and full of emotions. This applies in particular to Wagenknecht, who, in contrast to her party colleagues, is more likely to be handled with kid gloves by talk show host Lanz. Buyx tries to achieve diplomacy and understanding in the discussion, but like the virologist Rübsamen-Schaeff and Maier, it should be noted that she is not in line with Wagenknecht.