Joachim Gauck speaks on “Lanz” on ZDF about Putin and what Merkel. The theologian is astonishingly clear in his judgment that pacifism “leads to nothing good”.
Hamburg – In the week before his summer break, Markus Lanz welcomes only one guest to his talk show every evening. A worthy framework for Joachim Gauck, the eleventh German Federal President and predecessor of Frank-Walter Steinmeier (SPD).
Unsurprisingly, Gauck continues to be statesmanlike even after his tenure. Again and again, the 82-year-old loses himself in minute-long monologues about different forms of government. “We’re digressing, back to Putin,” Lanz once let his guest know – after initially allowing him to finish for five minutes. But that doesn’t hide the fact that Gauck carries out sharp analyzes throughout the entire conversation and doesn’t hold back with criticism. Former Chancellor Angela Merkel and the traffic light government have to take it. Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck (Greens), on the other hand, gets plenty of praise from Gauck.
“Markus Lanz” on ZDF: Gauck calls Putin “obsessed”
Already at the beginning of the program Gauck is very clear, describes Vladimir Putin as “obsessed”. Before the war broke out, he asked himself whether the Russian president could really be “that stupid”. Not so clearly, but nevertheless critically, Gauck also met Richard David Precht and the so-called open letter of some intellectuals to the government. “I have a decidedly different opinion than Precht,” says Gauck, who is now letting go of his statesmanlike manner. It is clearly noticeable how annoyed he is about the content of the letter.
The letter triggers “two uncomfortable feelings” in him: firstly, the impression of presumptuousness in explaining to the victims in Ukraine what they have to do; on the other hand, the lack of a goal perspective. The open letters on how to deal with the Ukraine war have recently been a frequent topic of emotional debate at Lanz.
Ukraine war: Gauck calls for “Lanz” weapons “that really help them”
Gauck says that the majority of Germans are currently in favor of the delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine. That was different when “German Angst” still prevailed in Germany. Through its work, the traffic light coalition managed to eliminate the worries. In this case, the beneficiary of the fear is always Putin. “The renunciation of arms deliveries is in principle an advantage of the aggressor.”
A person who thinks imperialistically is never satisfied if one makes concessions, Gauck adds. On the contrary, follow the pursuit of “more”. In this context, Gauck also criticized the traffic light government: “I believe that we must support Ukraine more than we are doing now.” And “also with weapons that really help them”.
Lanz takes command again and wants to shed light on another aspect. The moderator refers to his military service in Italy: “I thought to myself,” says Markus Lanz, “if things get really serious, I’ll be the first to run away.” He makes it clear: “That has changed completely.” Through what is happening in Ukraine, the situation is now more tangible. “When I imagine Berlin being attacked…”, says Lanz, but without finishing the sentence. It is quite possible that he became aware of the possible resonance shortly before speaking out.
Gauck: “The pacifist approach does not lead to anything good”
Gauck, mind you, a former evangelical pastor, jumps into the breach. When asked if he would take up arms, Gauck says: “I wish I didn’t have to, but in such a case I would.” And that’s not all: “The pacifist approach doesn’t lead to anything good .” Although this attitude is “honourable”, it leads to the dominance of evil, criminals and the cementing of the inhuman.
For pacifist-minded people there are only equally bad warring parties, says Gauck. But that is fundamentally different in the Ukraine conflict, “there is black and white here”; an aggressor and a victim. Any other representation is a “distortion of perception”.
Gauck says Merkel saw through the Russian president’s real goals a long time ago. “With Merkel, she knew exactly that he was lying.” Nevertheless, as chancellor, following the principle of democracy, she spoke to Putin. Gauck would still have liked a clear line, “somewhere is the limit”. One should have recognized that “Nord Stream 2 is by no means just a private company”.
Gauck finds praise for the historic “Zeitenwende” speech by Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD). The assessment of Habeck’s work is almost effusive. Gauck sees the Greens as a role model for young people with political ambitions. “Doing politics doesn’t just mean defining goals and describing content and then running campaigns, but doing politics also means conveying what we think is right.” Many politicians relied on the media to perform this function take over, says the former Federal President.
“Markus Lanz” – this guest discussed on July 13:
- Joachim Gauck – Former Federal President
Gauck seems almost relaxed with a view of autumn. Nobody currently knows whether the energy supply will be guaranteed across the board. And even less how the population could react to such a grievance. “But I don’t share the gloomy forecasts that we will have unrest on the streets.” Here Habeck comes into play again: Gauck is convinced that politicians like him can explain “why we’re doing something”.
Gauck – then again in the role of the statesman – gets the citizens on board. “We are not just the ones who can do the economic miracle. We are also the ones who sometimes grit our teeth when we can use it to help other people.” It’s not about the fear that life could go wrong, but about the fact that a few dreams might not come true, “where we might only be able to go on vacation once instead of twice”.
“Markus Lanz” – The conclusion of the show
Even if the conversation with Joachim Gauck is quite lengthy, the former Federal President presents surprisingly clear theses. Gauck does not hold back with criticism of the federal government. Even Lanz regular Richard David Precht gets his fat off. What is surprising, however, is how carefree Gauck is looking forward to autumn. (Christoph Heuser)
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